Ireland Focus tree

[billyiy]

I have no real modding experience, but i am a history buff who loves this time period and knows a lot about this time period especially irish history.
a change to the Ireland focus tree would be awesome, they stayed neutral in the world war 2 though had volunteers in the allies. The focus tree would have 4 distinct parts.

1) Creation of a new faction. This faction would focus on staying neutral and countries like Portugal and Switzerland would be awesome to be able to add. At the time many in Ireland saw England as an imperialistic bully. The faction would try and focus on helping smaller countries stay independent. It could also be celtic factions

2)Facist route: siding with he germans this tree would have Ireland join the Axis and go to war with England and the allies. this would be a huge help for the axis since it would surround the english homeland and take them out. 

3)communist route: this would have Ireland which at its heart is a socialist nation join the committerm, and side with Russia.

4) Democracy route: this would have Ireland join the allies and focus on taking out the axis. it could start with volunteers in foreign armies then a full blown war. 

Other comments
Northern Ireland: part of any of the trees could be a for Ireland to demand Northern Ireland from the British so the island could be whole, this could also work for the isle of man. 

Man power: I'm not sure what irelands man power is like but historically it wasn't that great during world war 2, since there was a revolution and a civil war in the 1920s. However there are a lot of irish immigrants all over the world. for example it is the second most widely spread ethnicity in the united states. Part of any of the trees would call immigrants back to the homeland so they can fight for Ireland. 

this was just an idea i really wanted to get out there into the community, and i hope to see a lot of awesome mods

[Climax708]

Sounds solid.
If you want, you can flesh it out some more.
I can see myself working on such mod in my free time.

[Brendan]

I've been thinking about it too, and I've just been watching "let's play"s on YouTube!

Churchill complained about changes to the Anglo-Irish Treaty, made as part of the resolution of the Anglo-Irish Trade War of 1932-38, that closed Britain's military access to three deep-water "Treaty Ports" on Ireland's coasts.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish_Trade_War
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_Ports_(Ireland)#British_dissent

Winston, foreshadowing the dangers posed to vital convoys by Germany's U-boats, noted that without these ports, the range at which Britain could protect convoys would be reduced by hundreds of miles. He was, of course, right -- Nazi wolf packs nearly choked Britain's supply lines to death until long-range naval bombers were developed to cover the Mid-Atlantic Gap.

Most interesting is this speculation by Churchill:

But what guarantee have you that Southern Ireland -- or the Irish Republic, as they claim to be, and you do not contradict them -- will not declare neutrality if we are engaged in war with some powerful nation? Under this Agreement, it seems to me...that Mr. de Valera’s Government will at some supreme moment of emergency demand the surrender of Ulster as an alternative to declaring neutrality.

This didn't come true -- Ireland maintained neutrality despite Nazi bombings and their shipping (like the MV Kerlogue) being hit by Axis and Allies alike. But, near as I can tell, never asked for the bargain. And, though they made preparation for invasion by either Germany or Britain, they quietly coordinated with the UK on Plan W to counter a potential Nazi invasion of Ireland under the cleverly codenamed "Operation Green".
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Green_(Ireland)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_W

If modding the UK's Focus Tree were part of the mod, there's historical basis for a Focus to ask Ireland to join. In June 1940, Churchill's cabinet Minister of Health Malcolm MacDonald was sent to Dublin for a series of meetings and authorized to "give back" Northern Ireland if Ireland would enter the war on the Allied side. De Valera declined the offer, but in-game Ireland could be given an event and potentially accept.

However, in-game there's only one port, at Dublin, rather than Lough Swilly in the north and Berehaven and Spike Island in the south...

They'd either have to be added at the beginning of the game or as something that happens following these Focus Tree options.

But a Focus Tree option for Ireland could be made to trade either Military Access or outright joining the Allies in exchange for the state of Ulster. The UK would get an event and, if they refuse, Irish opinion of the UK would drop (further, somehow) and Ireland might see the popularity of Fascism rise.

A Fascist "Resurrectionist Ireland" could have a focus to trade entry into a war against Britain for German guarantees of being given Ulster and/or some lend/lease equipment (though the British intercepted the aid the Kaiser sent in 1916 for the Easter Uprising...).
I doubt, however, that the usual "Reign of Terror" would take place in an Irish Fascist coup given memories of the brutality from the Black and Tans and especially Auxies during the Irish War for Independence.

I agree it should have a Focus to call Irish abroad home to fight for glory, but only if it's declared war on the British, which would make help from America iffy.
Conversely, an Allied Ireland should have a Focus to call for volunteers from America. Some Irish in Ireland did volunteer with the UK during the war.


Real-world neutral Ireland also coordinated with the UK on the "Rathduff aerodrome" as a fallback for the RAF should Britain be invaded and occupied by the Germans. The chosen site was in County Tipperary (inland, just west of the river Sein). That could be a basis for a Neutral or Allied Ireland gaining a new Airport there. Neutral Ireland would have to have enough liking from the UK or the Brits just be in really bad danger.

Potentially, a Communist Ireland could also get that as the Allies did hold common cause during WWII against the Axis despite generally opposing Comintern.


After the invasion of Belgium and the Netherlands, the British were convinced that an invasion of Ireland would come from the air, via paratroopers. They were not satisfied with the Irish government's defense capability, particularly against airborne troops. So another Focus could be adding Anti-Air Batteries to Leinster and Munster and a 1x50% Research reduction on RADAR tech.


I'm also curious what a "Non-Aligned" autocratic or Celtic monarchist Ireland would be like. There's no way of boosting Non-Aligned in game, but for a mod you could do anything.
Maybe if de Valera's democratic government fails to defend Ireland from Fascists, and the UK betrays Plan W, the Irish make this William Norton their king? There's all sorts of possibilities. Lucht Oibre could have a Focus to boost Celtic nationalism in Scotland, then one to support a Scottish secession as a new nation in the game as part of a Celtic Coalition faction, followed by a Gaelic Union that makes Scotland core states for you to recruit from. Who knows? Let the Welsh succeed too.



As for National Spirits, Ireland could start with one granting extra national unity, reflecting the shared struggle for independence and their recent success in "winning" the Anglo-Irish Trade War (they hurt their own economy more, but English businessmen pushed Chamberlain's govt to grant Irish demands so they could get back to selling to the Irish).

They should also have a buff to their Partisans akin to the Werewolf Guerillas -- the whole country had a deeply entrenched skill and will for resisting occupation. 


I'm not sure whether a National Spirit or some other mechanic would be needed, but joining the Allies ought to have a big negative to either Political Power or to National Unity, or both. This quote from de Valera after VE Day (responding to Churchill's self-praise of his not invading Ireland) sums up the Irish attitude at the the time:

I would like to put a hypothetical question -- it is a question I have put to many Englishmen since the last war. Suppose Germany had won the war, had invaded and occupied England, and that after a long lapse of time and many bitter struggles, she was finally brought to acquiesce in admitting England's right to freedom, and let England go. But not the whole of England; all but, let us say, the six southern counties.
These six southern counties, those, let us suppose, commanding the entrance to the narrow seas, Germany had singled out and insisted on holding herself with a view to weakening England as a whole, and maintaining the securing of her own communications through the Straits of Dover.

Let us suppose further, that after all this had happened, Germany was engaged in a great war in which she could show that she was on the side of freedom of a number of small nations, would Mr. Churchill, as an Englishman who believed that his own nation had as good a right to freedom as any other, not freedom for a part merely, but freedom for the whole -- would he, whilst Germany still maintained the partition of his country and occupied six counties of it, would he lead this partitioned England to join with Germany in a crusade?
I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

Would he think the people of partitioned England an object of shame if they stood neutral in such circumstances? I do not think Mr. Churchill would.

[Brendan]

Strategically, I think Ireland would contribute to the Allies greatly with convoy protection, provided some research bonuses and dockyard investment from the the UK and France. Naval Bombers and Destroyers are the natural fit.
But I think some bonuses to Tactical Bombers would let the Irish focus their limited industrial resources (and really pitiful amounts of steel and aluminum and nothing else) on one thing and turn it both toward anti-submarine and bombing the Axis. They could be the aerial auxiliaries while the British focus on fighters and the rest. It could be a symbiotic Focus -- I've not seen any two nations in-game split up "responsibilities" in a complimentary way.

I'm also amused by a research bonus to MPs and having them be the Shillelagh Division...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHSWuBw9QxM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shillelagh_(club)
But following the logic that it's hard to build a war machine with only 3 core states and 2.97 million population (even after adding Ulster and 1.2 million to core population), having them follow up Allied advances controlling unrest would help a war effort, Allied or otherwise...

My one other idea for playing Ireland would be paratroopers to jump just ahead of a larger allies advance, and holding out long enough for them to break through and just extend Irish control of enemy territory on out -- but I haven't tried it. Still, seems like a clever leprechaun maneuver to me.

[Brendan]

After researching entirely too much, here are entirely too many research findings:

William Norton, HOI4's choice for non-aligned leader, was Leader of the Labour Party (Lucht Oibre) from 1932 to.. well past the end of HOI4. He was considered a modernizer and was also member of the Knights of Saint Columbanus, an Irish Catholic secret society, akin to the Protestant Freemasons, promoting traditional Catholic social values through politically active members. He succeeded Thomas Johnson who led Lucht Oibre from 1917 to '32.

Lucht Oibre, or the Labour Party, was then a center-left party -- socially conservative but not fiscally. It has roots in the leftist/socialist workers' unions and trade union organizations of the 1910s. They were the opposition/minority party to the center-right Cumann na nGaedheal party that formed the pro-Treaty government. It supported the populist/centrist Fianna Fáil forming a government in 1932 because de Valera proposed social reforms it favored. At that time, William Norton succeeded as leader of Lucht Oibre.



Páirtí Náisiánta Corparáidíoch, or the National Corporate Party, was founded June 1935 by General Eoin O'Duffy, splitting off from the center-right Fine Gael party which itself had just been formed in 1933 by changing its name from Cumann na nGaedheal and merging with the rural National Centre Party and O'Duffy's own National Guard or "Blueshirts". It rose from a general European malaise against democracy and believed in corporatism, an idea that instead of competing companies or churches, all people in a given trade or interest should be lumped together and act as organs of the State. The new party had uniform Greenshirts but fewer members followed O'Duffy out of Fine Gael than went in. After an embarrassing showing as volunteers supporting Franco's Nationalists in Spain (mainly because they were Catholic), the party fizzled out in 1937.

Eoin O'Duffy fought for Irish independence and in 1921 became director of the pro-Treaty National Army. In 1922 he became police commissioner, making them a respected, non-political force. But in 1932 he urged the outgoing government to stage a coup rather than let Fianna Fáil take control. De Valera dismissed him in '33. Already he'd shown admiration for fascists and then attempted his own "March on Rome". In 1936, he recruited a 700-man Irish Brigade to support Franco in the Spanish Civil War. The boondoggle it turned into disappointed his Catholic nationalist fans at home and he returned in disgrace in June 1937.

[Climax708]

That's a lot of research.
Brendan - you sound like you really want that mod to become reality.

[Brendan]

Aug 6, 2016 11:26:41 GMT Climax708 said:

That's a lot of research.
Brendan - you sound like you really want that mod to become reality.

I think I just like my Irish history. That's the excuse I'm going with -- not a video game obsession, just proud of my heritage yo!

[Brendan]

The USA in-game has two democratic-ideology parties, Democrat and Republican, each with a leader who brings certain traits as gameplay features.

Ireland would be more interesting with an opposition democratic party instead of a useless Non-Aligned. And Lucht Oibre isn't non-democratic, so it's nonsense to have them Non-Aligned. Sinn Fein did at one time supported a non-democratic monarchy, but there's no way in vanilla to boost Non-Aligned, so reviving the Kingdom of Ireland (and not just with an English king) is goofy.

However, the Labour Party was in coalition with Fianna Fáil at the time. A much better choice for "the other party" is Fine Gael. It was a re-branding of the pro-Treaty Cumann na nGaedheal which led the government until de Valera's Fianna Fáil government came in in 1932. Their leader was the former president W. T. Cosgrave. He didn't trust the British to honor the Treaty, but he was intensely, even brutally, pragmatic about step-wise progress.

De Valera's leadership trait might be that he's determined to remain neutral. Focus Tree options to join the Allies or any significant collaboration with the British would be unavailable to the player.
A re-elected de Valera would pass the new constitution in 1937 and remove a National Spirit suppressing National Unity as the pro/anti-Treaty question was less settled before the constitution basically fulfilled aspirations for a republic and got rid of a sucky name. "Irish Free State" ...meh.

Once the UK is at war with a major power, typically 1939, Ireland under Fianna Fáil might get an event from a UK Focus to offer Northern Ireland in exchange for joining the Allied war effort but at a cost to National Unity. The AI would reject it, but the player could choose. Though most Irish would help the British to drive out Nazi invaders, the previous years left them deeply ambivalent toward any British encroachment.
De Valera passed the Emergency Powers Act 1939 after Germany invaded Poland and proceeded to equip the Defense Forces by buying from the US and the UK, their largest trading partner by far. Something like Lend-Lease should be available for that by a Focus.

W.T. Cosgrave and Fine Gael winning the election could open up Focus options to side with the Allies in exchange for Lend-Lease aid, military factories, radar stations, new airports and dockyards, and land forts around Irish cities. Cosgrave also wanted Irish independence, but it wouldn't be as unexpected or unacceptable for him to justify open cooperation with the British against the Axis. However, first priority would be to fortify Ireland in ways that made them harder for the British to re-conquer.

Churchill pessimistically predicted Ireland would demand Northern Ireland in exchange for use of its ports when war threatened imports to Britain from America. Where de Valera drove for neutrality, Cosgrave might have done exactly that -- use the Battle of the Atlantic as leverage to finally unify Ireland (and somehow deal with the Ulster unionists who wanted nothing to do with it...).

[Brendan]

I've been watching a YouTubers playing as Ireland, specifically Veneke's HOI4 Fascist Ireland, and reading more about Irish history. Aside from thinking there ought to be multiple generic trees for the small minor nations vs populous ones and European/Commonwealth vs. frankly everyone else, there's a very unique position Ireland was in during the war that really could have gone very differently!

Some key drivers of Ireland's situation in 1936:

• Bitter feelings over "The Treaty" and the civil war that followed had divided major Irish organizations and society at home and abroad.
• Ireland was struggling to build its economy after its wars and a Pyrrhic victory in the Anglo-Irish Trade War.
  
• The UK remained Ireland's biggest trading partner.
• Ending the partition of Ireland was a unifying aspiration for all Irish (Ulster unionists excepted) though the status quo was then setting in.
  
• Anti-Treaty Irish, with anti-treaty Fianna Fáil in government, mostly abandoned "physical force republicanism" with a marginalized IRA scheming anti-UK terrorism and seeking German support.
• The Irish in America formed a large minority and Irish-American nationalists sought influence.
  
• Owing to large emigration to America since the 1840s Great Famine, the States held a special place in Irish hearts.
  
• Roosevelt was strongly anti-Nazi and deeply pro-British, and pressured Ireland to join the Allies while America was still neutral.
• De Valera's government attempted to win American agreement to sell them arms, but efforts were led by a staunchly anti-British diplomat who offended Roosevelt and others.
  
• In 1940 Churchill's government secretly offered to support reunifying Ireland in exchange for joining the Allies but de Valera refused because he didn't want to be on the losing side.
  
• Despite hard feelings with the English and Ireland's neutrality, thousands of Irish volunteered with the British Army and Ireland did not restrict them from departing or returning on leave, but interned all Axis personnel throughout the war.
  
• The IRA and Germany's Abwehr intelligence developed ties. Some stolen British technology was transferred but the remnant IRA was found lacking. With little success in missions, operations floundered once British intelligence coordinated with Ireland's G2 to arrest German agents. This also sparked Ireland to cooperate with the UK on "Plan W" -- the joint defense of Ireland against German invasion.
• The UK considered paratroopers the most likely German spearhead into Ireland.
  
  
  

Some minor but mentionable factors.

• Gaelic linguistic revivals inspired much of Irish nationalism from the 1880s onward, and to lesser degrees had parallels in Scotland, Wales, and Cornwall. Also in the Celtic Fringe were the Isle of Man and Brittany in NW France.
• A few Pro-Treaty and Anti-Treaty Irish continued their civil war through volunteering in the Spanish Civil War on the Fascist and Communist sides respectively (to little effect).
  
• Eoin O'Duffy turned his heroic turns in the War for Independence and success as commissioner of the respected Gardai police became a buffoon championing Fascism and leading a dismal showing as volunteers in the Spanish Civil War in 1937.
• Irish Catholic priests supported Franco, to a degree, because of his support for Catholicism
  
• Marxist-Leninist Communism had inspired labor strikes in the 1910s and 20s but had waned after infighting in the leadership and otherwise poor results whithered support from Comintern.
• In early 1939, the recently outlawed IRA launched "the S-Plan" of terrorist strikes on British soil. They had a few successes while avoiding casualties but lost support after a deadly bombing in Coventry.
• Irish whiskey held 90% of the world whiskey market in 1900 but Prohibition-era knockoffs had tainted the Irish image and crashed their market share even after repeal. Guiness, however, remained important enough to bargain with the UK even during rationing.
  

[Brendan]

Apparently someone has long since made a new Focus Tree complete with Events:

steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=717472811

Now I've learned about history for nothing. Aw beans...

[Climax708]

Knowledge is never entirely useless.
Consider posting on suggestions?

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